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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  August 25, 2011 6:00am-9:00am EDT

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>> oh, yes. >> and i plan on house is havina smother and eat contest. >> we don't get enough waffle house references. a tweet, up early cleaning up a wall fountain that fell into the cat food dish and bumped it. what a mess. we have that market cornered as well. "morning joe" starts right now. >> this book is going to make a lot of people angry. >> there are going to be heads exploding all over washington. >> you know that? >> yeah. >> heads exploding all over washington. good morning, it's thursday, august 25th. with us on set, the president of action network and host of
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"politics nation," reverend al sharpton. happy to have you on board. also with us, essy cup. nice to have you this morning. and from the "huffington post," alex wagner, also very chipper this morning. down in washington, the "huffington post," sam stein. how are you? >> good. >> jaime is going to appear on "dateline." we are getting clips from his memoir. he's going to make people angry. he goes after colin power, condy rice and do we have the water boarding clip? he comes out and says i believe
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in what we did with water boarding. >> in your view, we should still be using enhanced interrogation? >> yes. >> no regrets? >> no regrets. >> should we still be water boarding terror suspects? >> i would support using it if we had a high valued detainee. >> even though so many people condemned it and called it torture, you think it should be a tool? >> yes. >> reverend sharpton, what do you think about dick cheney coming out with a memoir where he worked so closely to people that are still around. >> it's interesting he would say he's going to make a lot of people angry. he always did. >> he's make other people angry. >> what i think is interesting is he used the memoir to go after people that served in the
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administration and who were loyal to the administration and to policies that he really helped engineer and the gratitude they get is be attacked in his memoir. that means they have to roll out and defend themselves. it gives a lot of the mentality of dick cheney. the politics of it, though, is, i think he will remind a lot of americans what we want to get away from. i think this is good for president obama and on that side of the political aisle. we need somebody to remind america why we wanted to get away from the bush-cheney era. if i was a republican candidate, i wouldn't want right at this time, you have to deal with the persona of dick cheney now being the story. i think politically, i couldn't
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have timed it better if i was the one that was engineering this as a democrat. >> what about that from colin powell. "the new york times" got an advanced copy. he goes after colin powell for expressing regrets about the iraq war. >> i think it's clear, dick cheney, above all else, he was a loyalist to the president. i'm not sure any republican candidates are worried about what dick cheney is doing right now. none of them had very strong bush ties. i don't think this reflects at all on them. it's years later. i think dick cheney is a little sick and tired of his name being dragged through the mud. this is his way of saying, look, i have no regrets. i make no apologies.
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i have a legacy to protect. i did what i did. i'm proud of the record. >> there are parts of the book where he second guesses president bush a bit. >> do you think president bush will feel betrayed that you have revealed project conversations? >> i don't know why he should. >> you don't think so? >> i don't think so. >> you said the president deserves to be able to trust the people around him. by revealing these differences, you don't think you are betraying that trust? >> no. >> alex, what do you think? >> i think a better title for the book would be, "in my defense". look, he feels he's been done an injustice. this is just to clear the record. to the point, to the part about george w. bush, one of the more telling episodes is cheney says he was in control of the country
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after 9/11. he was commanding the country from a bunker. if people give president bush credit, it's the moments after the towers were attacked and the pentagon was attacked. they think it's a calculated move to say actually that was me. beyond that, you know, i assume bush is sad he's not part of the italian villagery. >> we'll get to that in a moment. during september 11th, president bush on that day was a peripheral player, dick cheney was running the show from a bunker urbunk er under the white house. >> i have to say, i read "the new york times" book and watched the clips and read the excerpts. a lot of it is old territory that we are rehashing. i don't see it moving forward.
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i guess there were differences in the bush administration during the prosecution of the iraq war. dick cheney fought behind the scenes with colin powell and disagreed with a lot of what george bush did. so, i'm curious to get my hands on a copy of it. most of it is old hat to me except the italian village. i want to be with dick cheney in this italian village. it sounds great. >> let's read it. the epilogue of the bok, cheney talks about going under heart surgery. he was unconscious for a couple weeks. he had a prolonged vivid dream he was living in an italian villa pacing the stone path to get coffee and newspapers. sounds like heaven to me. >> sounds like an opening montage for "saturday night
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live." >> they are going to get their hands on this, trust me. i want to talk a little bit about steve jobs as well. huge news. he put out a letter announcing his resignation. it's hard to overstate the impact this guy has had on computing and music. he changed the music business. on film with pixar, on marketing, on retail experience. this guy is a giant in american history. >> no, i think that, you know, we use the term giant too loosely. there's clearly giants and then there's giants. i think he falls in the real giant category because he impacted american culture and world culture. what he did, the technology and as you say music, it transformed how we deal with information. it transformed culture at so
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many different levels. he changed the face of the earth in how people relate to each other. he will go down in history as a real, real giant and deservingly so. >> he said in a statement, if there was a time i could no longer meet my duties i would be the first to let you know. unfortunately, that day has come. s.e., he touched every part of our lives. >> i think when we all heard he had pancreatic cancer, we saw the writing on the walls. we knew this day would come. unfortunately, it's a very difficult cancer. luckily, apple has been in place working toward this moment. i think apple will be just fine and we can all sort of look back and remember steve jobs both alive and when he passes as a
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huge innovator and you are absolutely right a culture changer. >> tim cook, the coo has been in place for some time. they expect a relatively smooth transition all though stock is down this morning. >> if you talk to tech analysts about this, it's insurgent. the question is aulsz been what happens post jobs. there's a plan in place, but never forget steve jobs was the top of the pyramid and all major divisions flowed through him. i'm not saying there's going to be a wild disruption in terms of apples day-to-day, but it's different. >> we are going to check the markets in a minute. i want to get you in on the 2012 poll. the gallup poll, since announcing his bid two weeks
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ago, perry passed romney and bachmann. he leads all candidates with 29% among republicans and republican independents. romney, 12 points back at 17 followed by ron paul and bachmann. it's before huntsman's new strategy. he's at 1%. 29% for rick perry. what does that tell you? >> the field was unsettled before he entered. romney was the front-runner. if you talk to anyone who's participated in the republican primary, they were never satisfied with the status. bachmann did not get a win at the ames straw poll. rick perry grabbed it. he's not going to be a rehash of fred thompson who entered in
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2008, spiralled then disappeared quickly. >> reverend sharpton, if you are mitt romney looking at that number, how worried are you? >> you have to be concerned. you have to hope it's a new entry bump. it looks like it's more than that. you can't underestimate rick perry. even though he and i disagree on the weather, the fact is he is never lost an election in texas. he does know how to run a campaign. he's a shrewd person and has a charisma that mitt romney doesn't have. if i was advising mitt romney, i would say if you are thinking it's a shower that's going to pass, look at hurricane irene, it's coming. you are going to have to deal with it that way. i think the big one is sarah palin. >> sarah palin? >> i think the fact that he
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seems to have traction lessens her attraction. i think she's the one that i would say better get a copy of cheney's memoirs. >> always the pulpit. let's listen to what romney said when asked about the poll. >> look, i follow the strategy i have since the beginning. there's going to be potentially other candidates. i heard of others potentially getting in. i heard sarah palin might getting in. there's a lot going on amongst our group. if you are running for president, your focus should be on the current president and his failures. >> at the moment, the energy with the republican party is with rick perry. does he have staying power? >> a couple things. jeb bush came out and asked for
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a new tone among republicans. we shouldn't be flame throwers. clearly, it's not what voters want. they want the flame throwers. rick perry has been the worst when talking obama and his administration. there are two rick perry's. if you talk to texas republicans, there are two separate camps. one says he's an outsider, this non-politician. they really like that. he's the texas republican bush pretended to be. the other half, the detractors find him to be overly political. they really are turned off by it. which rick perry he wants to be going forward. the outsider, the outside washington texas politician.
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he can't occupy both spaces. >> the civil tone as jon huntsman at 1%. >> i think that's his family. >> his mom. >> you know, what else can you say other than he is trying to compete. he is saying presidents are elected in new hampshire and south carolina. it's where his effort is. this is just noise. he's not going to get involved in this. you have rick perry who is his own hurricane irene. i think, you know, in that same mitt romney interview someone said are you going to show more personality now, no offense. romney just had no rejoiner to that. it's a change in dynamics. exactly. exactly. >> this is all i got. sam, let's suppose rick perry for the sake of the argument is the nominee. how does he do in the general?
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>> if we are going to go down this hypothetical -- >> we are. >> why not. i think he's going to do as well as people would invision. he's got a lot of problems, a lot of skeletons in the closet. the rapid job growth in texas. a lot of problems on climate change. a lot of problems in the views of social issues. it might play well on the republican primary. i don't think it does well in the general election. >> it's hard to tarnish him. >> he doesn't believe in science. >> the creepy moment where he lectured the boy in iowa. >> yeah. i can't wait. >> i bet you cant, reverend. >> we're going to check in with
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richard engel. he continues his report in tripoli. robin wright predicted what unfolded in the middle east this year. fraud investigator and bernie madoff whistleblower, harry markopolos. steve jobs is stepping down. forbes annual list of 100 most powerful women is out. we'll tell you who topped the list. first, bill karins with a look at hurricane irene. good morning, bill. >> here is what you need to know. the forecast, instead of shifting further to the east is further to the west. it's no longer a storm that is going to miss. we are looking at impacts right through new england. it's over the bahamas. it's close to florida. large waves and rain there today.
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here is the latest forecast. the thing to notice, at least the storm is weakening as we go through the the forecast. 125, 115, 105 miles per hour. that's the good news. it probably won't be a major hurricane, but category 2 to category 1 hurricane. here is what it looks like saturday night into sunday morning and all day sunday, the jersey shoreline pretty much during the day would be the worst. 80 miles per hour winds. the potszibility of raking the coal line. the first time in a long time that happened. as a strong tropical storm into massachusetts. we are talking a storm that would do damage. we are going to watch the squiggly lines. to the left is chesapeake bay. every city on i-95 is at risk.
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we'll have updates in the next couple days. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. [ female announcer ] what if your natural beauty could be flawless too? discover aveeno positively radiant tinted moisturizers with scientifically proven soy complex and natural minerals. give you sheer coverage instantly, then go on to even skin tone in four weeks. aveeno tinted moisturizers. and i saw another store's ad for these crayons at a lower price. no problem -- i can match that right here. oops -- i don't have the ad. you don't need it. oh, what about a coupon for these pens? yeah. easy. why does the glue not stick to the glue stick? well, it's very complicated, but it has to do with oxygen. i knew that. [ male announcer ] we're so confident in our low prices every day on everything for back to school, we back it with our easy ad match guarantee. get this graphing calculator for just $95. save money. live better. walmart.
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♪ let's take a look at some of the morning papers. "the new york times" a new pentagon report that says the military arsenal is growing. china already leads the world in ground troops with 1.25 million. the report estimates chinese military spending $160 billion in 2010 compared to the united states spending nearly $700 billion. the guardian, a new study says twitter was mainly used to react to the london riots, not to organize them. this news comes in sharp contrast that says social media,
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twitter, was one of many sites used to gather protesters. forbes magazine list of 100 most powerful women. the imf christine la guard on the governor. the number one on the list. german chancellor angela merkle. hillary clinton, michelle obama is eight, lady gaga is number 11. look at michele bachmann, number 22 of the most powerful women in the world. >> lady gaga a lot more important than people who are running for president. i guess when you wear a dress made out of cold cuts. >> that always gets them. >> facebook ceo number five in
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the world. joining us for more on steve jobs resignation, john fort. good morning. >> good morning. lots of people surprised out here in silicon valley. lots of comments coming out from companies that have been competitive with apple. cisco coming out with support of steve jobs. google posting statements and support of steve jobs health. this is a person who has affected all of silicon valley. >> what do we know -- i know they are tight lipped about this. we suspect it's the pancreatic cancer. he had a liver transplant. is that the bottom line? is it why he stepped aside? >> it appears to be. absent from the statements yesterday was any referent at all to his health. the closest we got was he
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mentioned if it ever came down to he wasn't able to fulfill his duties as ceo, he would let us know. he said that in the context of his health. he said yes, the time has come. i am no longer able to serve in that role. no mention of his health in this announcement. >> we have to believe that's what it is. you and i talked awhile ago about steve jobs legacy. hard to do it in a couple minutes. how will he be remembered as an executive at apple? >> well, you know, he's really so unique in so many ways. you can't just pick up and run a company the way steve jobs has and the way he does. look through apple's patents. his name is on many of the patents. the design focus is something he's elevated working with the lead designer, jonathan. look at the marketing and the use of commercials, the use of
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the stage and his star power. then you look at the turn around. the fact he was able to assemble a team that included operational people, tim cook, the ceo of the company. ron johnson, he brought over from target to create a retail experience that's been so key to apple's revival. all the tools he's brought together plus the outside work he did at pixar. it reinvigorated animation for disney. he's a unique ceo and executive in america. >> john fort live in california for us. thanks so much. obviously, not just a gadget guy. he changed the way music is delivered. the apple stores have become places of worship for people to get apple stuff. mike allen has a look at the playbook. hello, mike. >> hey, good morning. >> good morning. we were talking rick perry.
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he's got a sizable lead. 12 points over mitt romney. how is the gop establishment going to react? >> they are surprised at what he's saying out on the trail, taking pot shots on washington wall street. if you are going to raise money for a presidential campaign, if you are going to compete with mr. moneybags, where are you going to go? he's the front-runner in the polls by being mr. outsider do they want pictures of him coming to new york-d.c. to raise money? his early fund-raisers, the first wave of trips he's doing in the next week or so are the south, southwest, mountain west, places he's traditionally raised money. he's raised money in new york and d.c. and will be coming here, too. the question is how much to do
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that. he's had meetings with people who he hopes will raise money for him. at least for now, he's been able to get new york and washington to come to him. >> smart republican money flow in his direction? >> we'll see. rick perry may be new on the presidential scene but he's not new politically. people know who he is. they have known him for quite awhile. he's got coffers to dip into. weather they are deep enough and long enough to sustain a year of campaigning remains to be seen. mitt romney's got four years behind him and what is the front-runner. it may end up being the front-runner once the haze of rick perry, you know, excitement saves a little. we'll see. >> mike, what is your sense of panic as you look at the new
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numbers? >> they are not panicked. they think they are going to be the long-haul player, the last man standing. they think rick perry has not gone through a national vetting. he's about to get a big scrubbing from all the reporters and think he's going to come out, not as shiny as he looks now. >> mike allen, thanks so much. standing by in the green room, keith richards was going to be there. eric will join us in a few minutes. up next, ochocinco at it again. offering to pick up a tab for a fine leveed against an opposing player. that story in baseball. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals.
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fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? um... try the number one! [ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] half a day's worth of fiber. fiber one. excuse me? my grandfather was born in this village. [ automated voice speaks foreign language ] [ male announcer ] in here, everyone speaks the same language. ♪ in here, forklifts drive themselves. no, he doesn't have it. yeah, we'll look on that. [ male announcer ] in here, friends leave you messages written in the air. that's it right there. [ male announcer ] it's the at&t network. and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say.
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welcome back to "morning joe." time for news. rebel forces in libya putting a bounty on the head of moammar gadhafi and offering amnesty to the leader whose stranglehold on
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power ended after 42 years. nato is giving the opposition intelligence and recon help to track gadhafi down. the opposition fires guns and rockets into the air in celebration. no clear leader emerged. no parliament or military command. they tell nbc news there are serious concerns over the leadership. according to the associated press, the united states is asking the u.n. to releet the $1.5 billion it's held in frozen libyan assets. it comes as they release journalists held at gunpoint for days. meanwhile, italian journalists have been freed. eric holder calling the report on the phone hacking of 9/11 victims and their family very
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disturbing. holder assured the family the justice department is conducting a criminal investigation whether they were hacked by journalists at news of the world. the family members and lawyers said they were pleased with holder's comments. that was just the beginning of his dialogue with those families. let's turn to sports now. a tight race in the a.l. east. boston taking on texas down in arlington. a big night for carl crawford. five rbis in the game. rangers pitching in the eighth. gonzalez two-run home run. he's got 99 rbis already. the red sox crush the rangers, 13-2. yankees and as, one man brought down the bombers. his name? coco crisp. top of the second, he connects
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with a shot off cc sabathia. crisp with defense deep center field. nice running catch. the yankees were down a run. comes through with a solo home run. ties with game at three. they go to extra innings. in the tenth inning, that man, coco crisp smoked rafael soriano. a three-run home run. he drives in five of their runs. the yankees win, 6-4. they are a game behind boston in the a.l. east. the angels have a chance to make up grount in the a.l. west. weaver making his first start signing a contract extension worth $85 million. in the second, an off-speed pitch. the fourth, gets dunn again, this time swinging.
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weaver pitches seven shut-out innings. angels beat the white sox. anaheim won six straight. the rangers two and a half games out in the a.l. west. the orioles taking on the twins. overruns the ball. reaches back and makes a bare handed catch. orioles beat the twins, 6-1. mariners and cleveland, good example of whatnot to do. a double. it's a fair ball. check out the fan in the jersey in the yellow crown. he wore his yellow crown to the ballpark, now he's the star. it was a fair ball. he's offering him no support. he drops the ball on the field, ashamed and disgusted. the mariners went on to win, 9-2. >> remember the hit from the
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preseason game? a helmet to helmet hit. foster gave unsportsman like conduct for the hit. nfl commissioner handed down a 20,000 fine on foster for the hit. now ochocinco who complimented foster for the hit agreed to take the fine. ochocinco posted dad, referring to him as dad, no disrespect, but i don't agree. i'll reimburrs him personally. up next, editor for "rolling stone" magazine eric bates joins us for the must red op-eds. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. what's up, smart?
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the president has a lot of work to do in a lot of different areas. we hope that the nation will get behind it because if we don't, all of us are hurt. we are in this boat together. >> i think you are right. >> if this boat goes under, we all go under. >> all of us hold him accountable. we won't go to the cheap south. you didn't attack him, they won't show this all over the country tonight. it will just be on my show. if you had said one word wrong, you and i would have been famous all over again. >> reverend sharpton, we just put it all over the nation. >> you did that just to say that i was wrong. >> wasn't that transparent. we totally undercut you there. the executive editor of rolling
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stone magazine, good to see you. we are going to start with "the washington post." he writes you have to ask if unemployment were 6% would president obama be getting pummeled for not having us back to full employment. the question comes in mind to the wake of the libyan rebel success against gadhafi. it's remarkable how the oppon t opponents despite the predicts could never work. it actually did. what should obama take from this? steady moderation is different from looking around to see if opponents wouldn't be happy until he's back teaching law school. what do you think? >> he's facing criticism from both sides. they are always going to be dissatisfied with him. there's not a lot of support there. what's amazing is on the foreign policy front, he's done so much
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people before him weren't able to do, including getting bin laden. s.e.? >> i don't want to be partisan when it comes to libya but i think we missed an opportunity. by we, i mean he. he missed an opportunity to have an impact. we have no idea who the rebels are. there's a government vacuum in the capital. we have no idea what's going to happen. we don't know where gadhafi is. if we had more foresight, planning and preparation, an idea of what we wanted to accomplish, i think we could have gotten with gadhafi ourselves and had an idea who was coming up next. we didn't break it or buy it. we have no say over what happens. like the rest of the world, we are going to wait and see. i talked with donald rumsfeld about this. he said leaders come up with a
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plan and build a coalition around it. not the other way around. that's what obama did in libya. it's going to be chaos for a few months. >> reverend sharpton, a lot of people say he was vindicated. he took the slow and delivered approach. it was the way to go and gadhafi is gone because of it. >> clearly, someone didn't want him to go into libya at all and get into the regime change. out lining would have done. i think if we buy the notion this is a rebellion of the people of libya and not constrained by the west and nato and the united states, why would we be surprised the president did engage and decide who the leader was going to be and all that. if we don't buy that and they are manipulated by nato and the united states, i take the point. i think to get back to eric's
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point whether it's libya, whether it's getting bin laden, no matter what, it seems like this president will not get credit for anything. is there high unemployment and problems? sure. should we have criticisms and say whatever weakness? yes. when you do obvious things that should be given credit or when you have inherited things and people act like it's your fought. that's where dionne is right. it reminds me of one of the 1980s races when a guy said, we wake up tomorrow morning, look out at the potomac river and bok ma is walking on water. they write, obama can't swim. >> we heard what reverend sharpton said. president obama inherited this mess. they are saying it. he's saying people worked on his 2012 campaign are saying it.
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he inherited this mess. he's working through it. is that a good message when we are at 9.1 unemployment and people don't have jobs? do they want to hear about george w. bush? >> no. it's been long enough. he's got to own this. the point of the criticisms he gets, they are unmerited. we didn't hear conservatives saying where is the exit plan. you have given us this mess. you didn't have a plan to deal with it. we don't know who we are getting into bed with here. that was not accomplished. now we are hearing it in libya. it's all very partisan in terms of who it's coming from and when they choose to say it. >> didn't we have to go find saddam hussein? >> that's right. >> let me make a point about jobs here. i think you are right in that we can give obama credit where credit is due, he's coming out with a jobs plan very soon.
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i will say, as a conservative columnist, i look forward to seeing that. republicans should receive that plan with open minds and enthusiasm to work together. when it comes to jobs, the american people have no sense of humor and have no tolerance for the partisan politicking around that you can get away with when talking about the budget, taxes or spending cuts. when it comes to unemployment, the american people want solutions, they don't care who gets the credit. >> given what we went through on the debt ceiling debate that republicans will have an open mind and approach to the president's new jobs approach? >> i guess you would be foolish to have that inclination. the ceo came out with a study showing sluggish growth going forward. it could have two
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interpretatio interpretations. the president's policies have been ineffective so far. the second one, the more important one and the one s.e. is getting at, to get the economy back on track. when the jobs proposals come down, it's going to be important to see what the reactions would be. if there's additional spending, which a lot of economists say in the short term, even though big time debt and deficit reduction in the long term. we need to see what congress is going to do. there are people on the hill who actually embrace more spending and infrastructure. but there's really not a political capital on the republican side of the ledger. >> s.e., what is something the president could put out that the republicans could live with. >> i resign. >> i think he would get criticized for that as well. >> i think it has to have specifics.
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on the bus tour, what's next. i think people, including republicans want a specific jobs plan. if they have to look at revenue increasing, i hope they are open minded. i don't want to see that happen. we have to address this problem. if we have to get creative and innovative, maybe make compromises, i think the american people would appreciate that. >> the most, if you look at any of the templates, the best stuff is generating economic activity. unemployment is a good economic generator. there's no will on capitol hill to keep the benefits extended. what gives? how can you generate it when you are focused on cutting, cutting, cutting. >> where is the middle ground? >> i'm not sure there is any. reports the obama administration is looking at allowing people in government to refinance their
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homes. that could put $85 billion back into the economy. they have this against further spending that makes it impossible to jump start the economy. >> we'll see what he says after labor day. we'll get a first look at the cover of "time" magazine with rick stengel. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] members of the american postal workers union
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a few days ago, karl rove was talking about sarah palin getting into the presidential race. after that, sarah palin put out a statement suggesting that pundits should not be talking about the future. now rove responding to that response last night. >> i'm mystified. she's saying i'm trying to sabotage her and how dare i speculate on her future. if she doesn't want to be speculated, there's an easy way to end the speculation, simply say i'm not running. >> interesting to watch karl rove. he came out strongly with tough words for rick perry, now sarah
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palin. which candidate does he like? >> this tit for tat with sarah palin is like sam and diane on "cheers." i think he has certain point with this. he was saying her schedule was more like that of a candidate that someone on the public stage. it lends credence with the notion. sarah palin is a defensive character on the defensive stage. she doesn't like people talking about her or for her. we have not seen the moniker of the establishment to karl rove. there have been tensions in the past all though the bush and perry camps said no, no, no all the quiet on the front. >> it's interesting to watch the dynamic. >> i agree with alex i don't think rove was trying to
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democrat grate palin. she may have been responding to the fact she knows she's being used as a club over perry and he was not serious about her. i think she and rove were both trying to stay in the game. let's face it. with the surges with perry, the question of what's going to happen with romney, both of them like trying to stay in this. i think that you see two comp e competing egos with a plane that's taken off without them. they are at the gate saying remember me. >> trying to get on the last flight out. eric, let's get you in on this. we have a poll with perry way ahead of romney. up next, jill ran tett. we'll be right back. thanks to the venture card from capital one,
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i'm telling you, you couldn't have picked a better time to be in new york city, you know what i'm saying? yesterday, earthquake. this weekend, hurricane. where do you folks go next, tripoli? i hate it when the natural disaster hit. we have the hurricane coming. the young women over there, the flash dancers already strapping themselves to the pole.
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earthquakes are unusual to get here in new york. 5.8 on the richter scale. i have had bigger heart attacks than that. thanks. thank you very much. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's 7:00 in the morning here in new york city. the reverend al sharpton, eric bates from "rolling stones" magazine. the managering editor for the financial times, gillian tett. the apple ceo will resign immediately. he seeked treatment for pancreatic cancer in 2004. he's been on medical leave since january. he wrote i have always said, if there ever came a day i could no longer meet my duties as apple ceo, i would let you know. unfortunately, that day has come. we knew steve jobs had health
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problems for some time now. does this announcement surprise you at this moment? >> it doesn't surprise us in general. people knew it was coming. people new he was being named as the successor. apple is a big machine with a lot of products in the pipeline. in the short to medium nothing is going to change. the big question is so much was tied up in the person of steve jobs. trying to replicate that is going to be very hard. apple isn't just a powerful company, it's a powerful symbol of america's brilliance of creativity and innovation. it was the largest company in the world. they have a high credit rating. it's a very powerful symbol of what is right in american business. i hope they can stay on the
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right track going forward. >> i guess that is the question. has steve jobs built such a company that can go on without him or will things change in his absence? >> he's put together a business team, a team that knows what they are doing. the question is, the design team. apple has broken designers. jobs touch has been so integral to what they have done. the question is, is that replaceable? we'll have to see what the company has in place. the kind of talent it's going to need. >> this is a guy who is basically looking over the final details of designs, detailing project type for the iphone and ipad. he was very involved. the fascinating thing about steve jobs, he did not believe in endless market research. he said the consumer doesn't know what they want. i'm going to give you what they want. it was all about case.
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it was very much steve jobs taste. is taste something you can replicate over again or not? >> that's an excellent point. he created things that our minds hadn't considered. put them in front of us and we snatch them up. the ipod, ipad. >> iphone. >> all of them. >> exactly. >> i think that he has clearly served a line of succession and all of that. how do you give someone your vision and creativity? i think that's the challenge. the reason apple became that in this cutting edge way, he saw things nobody else saw. he believed he was persistent. i think that cutting edge, innovative kind of leadership is going to be the challenge. as a business, it will operate fine. will it be the one that decides
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and brings us to the next step in the area that steve jobs brought us? i think that's the challenge. i don't think steve jobs can create the next steve jobs. >> it's challenging like a jobs fashionhouse. the iconic fashion designer moves on. sometimes that spirit, taste and style outlives the original founder, sometimes it doesn't. it should have tremendous operations. there's a good chance it will happen. the future is uncertain. you can see that in the share prices. >> apple started, really as a garage band. jobs is the one who gave it that cool and gave it that sense of ties to the original roots. with him gone, it's what a rock band faces, what do you do without that front man. >> he's changed computing,
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music. >> they are going there a lot. is there a critical mass there? it's not going to replace print or magazines in particular. they have high resolution. they have a lot of things the talent device offers. the inner face he's created where you can one-stop shop for music, articles, everything in your life, books. it's incredible. it's changed the way we live our lives. >> i have a 2-year-old son. this is the world he's grown up in. he unlocks it. >> i don't travel without mine because my daughters know more about it than i do. it's the perfect way to keep kids quiet. >> most of steve jobs wealth is from pixar. not the ipad. most of his wealth comes from
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pixar. he changed the way films were made and the way children perceive films. >> sam stein mentioned the reports from the budget office and the sobering outlook. the group projecting a third consecutive year with deficits in excess of $1 trillion. a long road to recovery. the ceo finds a deficit of $1.3 trillion for 2011. $3.7 trillion in debt over ten years and continued debt growth beyond 2012. the cbo fipds unemployment will remain above 8% until 2014. jobless rates currently stand at 9.1%. john boehner calls it underwhelming.
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he said the president's plan was supposed to keep that from happening. it's helped put our nation's credit rating in jeopardy. where are the jobs asks boehner. they are looking to cut at least $1.5 trillion in debt over ten years. in a joint statement, the co-chairman say committee members are looking back before they begin to move forward. committee members are reviewing the deficit work that many engaged in over the past several years. it's important to get it right the first time. sam, the deficit numbers jump out at you but so does the deficit number, 8% through 2014. >> there's two stories. the deficit and the sluggish gdp. it's telling us how much more eagerness there is to tackle the first, not the latter. we are going to enter a stage of
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negotiation designed to cut $1.5 trillion over ten years. we have no committee tasks with finding out how to create 1.5 million jobs. we don't have a committee tasked to where congress comes together on a jobs program. we shun that to the side and put it in speeches. we have major reports from the cbo and basically we are all going crazy over this one when we should be looking at the jobs aspect of it. >> reverend sharpton, the march for jobs and justice. >> saturday, we are going to march from lincoln memorial to the new king monument, rain or shine. we should be fine. we gonna talk about we need jobs in this country. the unemployment rate is astro
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nom cal. it's high across the board, but it's higher in other communities and we want to change the conversation from just talking about deficit reduction, which must be dealt with. we not minimizing that. as the president comes back to make his jobs address and the supper committee comes in, we want them to know there's outrage all over the country. when speaker boehner says where's the jobs, we want to ask that of the congress. we brought in a majority republican congress. where is boehner's jobs? why haven't we seen one jobs bills by anybody in congress? everybody needs to answer that question. >> what are you and some of the folks you are marching with want to hear from the president that you haven't heard? what can he do differently? >> what the president has done over two and a half years with the stimulus and other things
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probably kept unemployment from going higher. we want more of that, infrastructure development. there's a bill that congresswoman has called fast. we want to hear things like that. and we want him to challenge that committee that there is a line we must draw that we must have jobs. you can do whatever you want to cut, but do not put us in a position we cannot cut jobs and we do not extend unemployment insurance and extend the payroll tax cuts. i think that these are the things that are specific and can happen and we will rally. the tea party is at the stage. now it's time for the other side to rally and say these are the things we need and we'll see whether mr. boehner and others on the other side are serious about jobs. >> reverend sharpton will be marching in washington. >> saturday is the march.
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>> if you take politics out of it, what could the president do in this speech after labor day to change the state of affairs here? >> it's going to be tough. you may not realize, yes the numbers are bad. as we report in the financial times, they are better than they were a few weeks ago for two reasons. firstly, interest rates have fallen. projections of the debt have gone down. because of the agreement to cut off the total budget deficit, the projections have gotten better. the problem now for the president on the jobs front or any other front, it's unclear whether the deficit is going to be sustainable. it's very unclear whether he's going to build pressurpressure. he's got a cocktail of
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challenges now. the report shows the scale of problems hanging over him. >> it's a huge, huge problem. it's unclear if we have a political system that's capable of tackling a huge problem. >> a political system in which congress is in control. it's said we are not going to raise more money from the clearest source, taxing the super rich, which caused the cuts on the super rich and we are not going to spend a dime of the money we have to stimulate the economy. you are in a jam. if you can't raise money or pump money into the economy, what is the answer? there isn't one? when speaker boehner comes out, where are the jobs, government spending and jobs, all the leading economists agree that what the gop has done in terms of shutting down any kind of spending is bad for the economy. he can't distance himself from
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the jobs question. he, himself is one of the biggest obstacles to stimulating the economy. >> sam, get in on this. where can we find middle ground? what is the breaking point? >> i wish i had the answer. no, i don't, sadly. i wish i did. that would make me much richer than i am. the bush tax cuts is hindering any long term debt reduction. they are set to expire at the end of 2012. there's no indication the president wants to decouple them for the rich. he punted on that once in 2010. now, you know, there are obvious spending measures that could be done in the short term to stimulate growth. there's a host of republican members of congress if they are spending in their home districts. maybe the president can say here
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are your requests, let's fund them now. i would think they would reject that. there's no middle ground that i see or anyone else. >> that was not a satisfying answer. >> sorry. >> come on, sam. eric, thanks so much for being with us. what's coming up in the magazine? >> a lot of good stuff coming up. we have the story on the fcc and how they are shredding documents. >> the magazine is doing greachlt keep up the good work. dreams and shadows showed dramatic changes for the middle east. robin chains us next on the changes that have taken place in libya and across the nation. we'll check in live with richard engel. where is moammar gadhafi. first, bill karins with a check on hurricane irene. >> this storm is going to be a
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serious storm. it's going to live up to all the expectations. this is going to be a $1 billion disaster. just the latest natural disas r disaster. the winds gusting 60 to 70 miles per hour. they will see the worst of it there during the daylight hours. hurricane irene, north carolina, connecticut highlighted. the time to prepare is now. from now until saturday, the middle of the day. mid-atlantic and new england. saturday night and sunday, the worst of the storm is hitting. a major rainstorm. the storm surge on the east of the track. i think the legacy of this storm is extreme tree damage up in new england. it's been a long time since they have seen a storm like this. a lot of trees falling on cars, houses and power lines. a long duration power outage event by the time this is said and done. here is the latest storm track.
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outer banks to maryland, delaware into new england. it's going to affect millions of people. it's going to be a storm to remember. details later today. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] get ready for the left lane. the volkswagen autobahn for all event is back. right now, get a great deal on new volkswagen models, including the jetta, awarded a top safety pick by the iihs. that's the power of german engineering. hurry in and lease the jetta s for just $179 a month. ♪ visit vwdealer.com today.
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♪ welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now from washington at the institute of peace and woodrow wilson international center robin wright "rock the casbah." good morning. >> good morning, willie. >> let's talk about what's happening in libya. you talked about a counter jihad where the islamic world, young people challenging autocratic
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regimes that have been in place for decades. sounds like you are talking libya. >> i'm talking the wider islamic world. part of it is the street risings we are seeing in yemen and syria. we are also seeing the rejection of extremism. people actively doing things to counter the id ideologies. it's important as we approach the tenth anniversary of 9/11. >> why are people saying enough is enough, we are going to change the way we live? >> in the arab world there are 300 million people. the majority are literate, that includes women. they have a sense of the outside world, what's available and political rights dominating most parts of the world. they have the tools of
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technology and means of communicating, getting a message out in a way they didn't ten or 15 years ago. this is a time you have factors and people willing to be different kinds of martyrs. they are not trying to take actions that kill other people or injure other governments but trying to shame their governments. the things that are striking in so many types of societies is the fact people have turned uniformly to people wanting to start a rebellion. >> look at the map we put up. all the places that have risen up against their government. it's remarkable. >> it's a real -- i mean it is a change in that part of the world. libya, one of the things that's interesting is how the region responded. you have the chinese who don't dip their toes into internal
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matters. they are supporting the rebel government. in south africa, there's hesitance to embrace what is happening. i think the african leaders union is critical. >> i want to pick this up in a second. we have richard engel joining us from tripoli. he's the chief foreign correspondent. richard, take it away. >> reporter: good morning, willie. we have moved out of green square as you can tell. there's only so much celebrating we could endure. gadhafi is wanted ted or alive. they are offering amnesty to anyone in the inner circle that can provide information to lead to his capture. nato providing intelligence to find gadhafi. there's fighting going on in the
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city. most of the intense fighting is around cert in the center of the country. we were talking ability the 30 journalists trapped and held by gadhafi loyalists, they have been released, all unharmed. willie. >> good to see you without the jacket and helmet on for the time being. we have a few questions for hit richard, but he cant hear us. >> talk about the assets. >> one of the things we are watching closely, what happens with the u.n. unfreezing the assets. there's $1.5 billion sitting inside the american system from libya. it's a huge amount of money for a country with only 6 million people. a few days ago, cameron and others pledged to unfreeze the assets.
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it hasn't because of what south africa is saying. there's uncertainty about whether they want to back these events or not or endorse it. unless the money is unfrozen, there's going to be problems for libya. they are on the verge of running out of fuel. it's potentially very serious. behind all the headline grabbing stuff about where is gadhafi, there's actually big questions about what is actually going to happen with that vast amount of money in the system that needs to get out into libya soon. >> vast questions about what these guys are, these rebels. we jumped out to get gadhafi out of power. weren't quite sure who we were jumping behind. what do we know about what comes next in libya? >> the council that's been ruling in benghazi has a plan. we have a sense of writing a constitution, holding a period of elections. the question is how fast can they get from benghazi to
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tripoli. they have experience from negotiating with the outside world to picking up garbage. unlike egypt and tunisia, which were handed over to military, this is a process they will start from scratch. democracies are messy and creating democracies are messier. we are in for a turbulent time. libya is the one with the greatest prospects because of the small population and great oil wells. it can provide the tangible results people on the streets are demanding. >> sam from the "huffington post" is with us. he has a question for you robin. >> you have to have institutions in place to make the post make this work. in libya, the institutions are going to matter when talking how much money to send into the country, where does it go, who
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gets it. the international organizations have to play in setting up the institutions and what could we do in a pragmatic sense making sure we have the structures in place so it goes smoothly. >> from benghazi, you saw the civil society, creation of parties. i think that will expand once tripoli is under the control of the interim council. the international community will play a role, i think, in libya more in terms of technical advice, getting their oil industry online and developing their economy unlike tunisia and egypt that need foreign aid. libya is one we provide until the status of resources are settled. then stand aside and let the libyans. this is two or three year process rather than one like egypt or tunisia which is a long term. >> a lot of u.s. foreign aid or
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something that's going to be shouldered by nato and other international institutions? >> i'm not sure we will need aid for libya, significant aid, anyway. i think there will be an international conference to provide short term loans or promise expertise. this is very small, 6.5 million people. it's not as complicated as dealing with a major american city in some cases. >> robin thanks for being with us. can't wait to get through the book. we always aappreciate having you on. thanks so much. >> we'll talk with alie ja comings. we'll get a first look at this week's "time" magazine. "morning joe" is coming back. [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now.
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♪ welcome back to "morning joe" as you look at a live picture of new york city. beautiful for now, until hurricane irene sweeps into
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town. former president, george w. bush remembers his experience on 9/11. in an interview for national geographic, president bush describes the moment he heard the planes crashed into the world trade center. >> i had been notified a plane hit the world trade center. at first, i thought it was a light aircraft. i thought man, either the weather was bad or something extraordinary happened to the pilot. a classroom was full of kids who were reading. >> read these words. >> in the back of the classroom there's a full press corps and i'm intently listening to the lesson.
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i felt a presence behind me. andy car was whispering in my ear. the second plane hit the tower. america is under attack. >> george w. bush, the 9/11 interview premiers sunday. just today, we are getting excerpts from dick cheney saying he was the man in control. >> he had communication difficulties reaching the president who was up in the air. cheney was in central command. he was, you know, theoretically, would be the one to answer the red phone and press the button and do whatever else. it's surprising news. there was a lot of questioning to his immediate reaction. he kept reading. apparently kept on listening to the lesson.
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to muddy the waters as far as the leadership. >> reverend sharpton, he says he didn't want to create panic. you watch that video and it brings it back, doesn't it? ten years later, it gives you chills. >> it does. to think that he would think, as the commander in chief of the armed services and president he's been told america is under attack and his reaction is to keep going through this intense reading. it's something that is absolutely spectacular, even in his recall it doesn't get better. i remember when michael moore did the movie and he was condemned by conservatives. now you have bush not saying much different in his own recall that we are seeing.
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cheney's book said i was in charge. it's not comforting to me. we approach the anniversary and the politics of this will return. a lot is going to meet question on what they would have done differently and do they have questions on the behavior of the president and vice president. we have an exclusive interview with vice president dick cheney that airs monday at 10:00. he will be here with us on "morning joe" next thursday. dick cheney live in studio. coming up next, an exclusive first look at this week's "time" magazine. we'll be right back. ♪ [ country ]
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joining us now is "time" magazine editor rick. what do you have? >> great to be here, willie. you holding down the fort and everything is fantastic. what's the story of the hour and what's going on in libya. we have an iconic portrait, half a portrait of moammar gadhafi. his face in the desert, the sand blowing him away, the end of the gadhafi regime, the end of the gadhafi era. nobody knows how it will, what will succeed him, but i'm optimistic. we are optimistic about what will happen. the main story is by fareed. the u.s. did it, we did it on
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the cheap. we did it clap rating with our allies, with the rebels it's what iraq has cost in terms of blood. it's the way to go for the u.s. to intervene. i think the phrase, leading from behind but you can lead from behind. this is a model of how the u.s. can be involved. >> fareed calls it winning from behind. >> yes. >> he writes the strategy is weak. the same critics are claiming a victory they doubted two weeks earlier. want to dig into the magazine a little bit. i have a piece about ron paul. >> yes. >> rick perry on top, romney trailing a bit. ron paul, in solid third place. >> yes. it's interesting how the extremes in both parties move
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the middle to both sides. ron paul has this backing of people who just think he is the profit as we call it in the story. his ideas are pretty far out there. we do a constellation of his intellectual history. but, again, getting rid of social security, going back to the gold standard, all these things are ideas which are not really accepted in mainstream thinking. people are, you know, people cotton to them. people like them. in our society, no matter how extreme your ideas, you can find an audience. he found one. >> he talked about things that are not sexy or easy to understand. it's not easy to sink your teeth into. >> the people of lost faith and the way finance works.
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they know they don't understand the system. they know something is going wrong. they are looking for answers. yes, his ideas are out in front of the mainstream. we are heading to a period of tremendous volatility, not just financial, but political volatility. the idea is being discredited. many certainties ripped up. america stepped in and saved the bank overturning what was normal then. now it's gone the other way. the other of being floated to the far right, we are going to see a lot more of that. people are looking for answers. >> the financial times going back to the gold. i hear that a little bit. >> i'm not saying we are about to endorse the gold standard. what i'm saying is people have to think outside the box. the reality is, the last four decades have been marked by an
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extraordinary explosion. there's been no anchor for the system other than faith in central bankers. it should be no surprise that people are looking frantically to answer those words. >> i tell you what is interesting about ron paul is he has a solid and consistent salary. but because he has not used this in a political way, like the tea party, it's not like anyone that is in the race is gravitating toward saying the ron paul vote is the vote i need to win. it's fashioned in a more ideal movement than in a political movement with a threat to impact someone's campaign. he's clearly, i think he's right to call him more of a prophet than a power broker.
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even though i may not agree with a lot of it, i think his persona and image he's creating is much different than those who say i'm going to take this position and leverage it into something else. he's more of an idea candidate. >> he's a teacher. he feels he wants to get these ideas out in the conversation and the currency. i think there are people in the republican party who would indeed be gunning for his vote. rick perry has to think i could get some of those ron paul voters. if i talk about the fed and the gold standard. you know, they have to go somewhere. >> yeah. i think perry might. romn romney. bachmann, if she understood it. >> talking about the budget a lot about argument and running around in circles.
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a big, bold alternative idea. >> it's a great issue. you have another piece, destroying houses and three radical ideas to jump start the economy. >> it's a terrific piece. it's about how we aren't going to fix the economy or jump start the economy unless we do something about housing in america. housing is where most people's wealth is. there's ideas we have to knock down a lot of these houses, increase foreclosures because you have to clear the market. it's tough love and tough medicine, but it's what we need to do. >> all right rick. we look to the cover. let's look at it again. beautiful work. thanks so much, rick. up next, the nfl season kicks off in two seasons from today. michael lombardi joins us with predictions. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.
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♪ it's 2011 nfl season kicks off exactly two weeks from today the super bowl champ green bay packers open up against new orleans saint thursday september 8th on nbc. joining us now for a preview of the season, the nfl network's michael lombardi and he
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contributes to "inside the nfl" on showtime. thank you for being here. >> good to be here. >> the lock-out is behind us and football is coming. >> it's the greatest time of the year, fall football, you can't beat it. it will be a tremendous season, we've expecting it so long, the memory of 9/11 to start off the season and it will be a tremendous season going forward. >> going into the season who are the favorites? everybody talks about the philadelphia eagles and in some way they become the miami heat, everybody hates them already. created an all-star team, what are their prospects? >> the backup quarterback named the dream team, vince young, and i don't know why you would do that, and everybody is looking at the eagles and they have a talented team and they have to come together. green bay, and new orleans, that will be a telling game, the new orleans saints is a great football team and sawn payton is an outstanding coach, and this year because of the lock-out,
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the quarterbacks will make the difference, and drew brees with his receiver and aaron rodgers with his receivers will give the impetus into the early season. >> how about the giants, what do we feel about them? >> the giants won ten games last year, unfortunately there's a lot of injuries in their secondary going into the season, but they are a tough, rugged type of time and ultimately if they can find answers in the secondary which starts with the defensive front because they are so dominant with the defensive line, that's the best thing for a cornerback, if you can't cover, you got to rush the passer and the giants do that well. they won't give up easily, they're a great team. i'm not sure they're in the echelon of new orleans and green bay. >> unfortunately they lost thomas on the acl. the other new york team, the jets, have been on the doorstep of the super bowl for two years. alex asked me to put this up. this is the cover of "gq" magazine. >> there you go. >> mark sanchez, devilishly handsome, is that the right term? >> sure. we'll go with that. >> can he lead them to the next
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game, the super bowl? >> i think the jets are all about their defense. their ability to control the vertical field position and mark sanchez not making mistakes and i think so far in the preseason that's what he's working on. the key will be the running dame. ladainian tomlinson is not the same back, shawn green has to say healthy and if he can, that will help mark sanchez, and if he can't, he has to look at plaxico burress coming back. and is new england the favorite? >> the jets because they beat them two out of three times bring back the same team, they have to be considered the favorite. new england has loaded up and changed who they are coming from the threethree-four to the foure and they are hungry. >> alex is critical of the change from the four-three to the three-four. >> you said it all. you really said it all. you said it all. >> every night at 6:00 on this show, she ripped the defense.
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>> alex took all my sports notes. >> you can take the kid out of the game but you can't take the game out of the kid. >> peyton manning, a big story actually, kerry collins being signed, what does that tell you? >> it tells that they don't know about peyton manning. he has a neck surgery that happened at the end of may and ultimately has got to get muscular strength back in his arms and legs, and he has to be 100%, anybody that tells you that peyton manning will play opening day doesn't know, because no one does, including peyton manning, the colts took out a $4 million insurance policy with kerry collins to protect themselves because they don't know. this is the first time in peyton manning's career where he doesn't have control of all the factors going into the situation. i'm not sure he'll play opening day. i wouldn't put anything past him. but the neck injury without being able to be strong in his upper body and throw the ball, it will be a difficult endeavor.
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>> teams just don't pay backup quarterbacks $4 million. >> yeah. >> they got information on manning and knew they had to get collins. we will put you on the spot because we had peter king here a couple weeks ago and i asked him to throw out a super bowl prediction and he thought for a second, detroit lions might go to the super bowl. what's your prediction? >> i like detroit, i think they are an up-and-coming team, and the rams are an up-and-coming team. i think new orleans and green bay will really fight it out. i think they're good teams and the jets and the patriots will fight it out in the afc. you have to look at pittsburgh because they're so tough, they're so determined and the team that loses the super bowl usually comes back with a lot of hunger. >> you might have the saints, the jets, the saints and the pats. great game. >> it's awesome. football is back and it's awesome. vandy will play football. >> we got elon coming up a week from saturday. we're going to crush elon. little elon college. >> elon, the general manager of
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the st. louis rams is from elon. you two should have a bet. i'll take it up for you. >> i usually don't bet on football. it's not wise. mike lombardi, great to see you. thanks for being here. we'll see you throughout the season. >> thank you. more with al wagner and the reverend al sharpton and we'll bring back sam stein as "morning joe" continues. [ male announcer ] this...is the network -- a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say.
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♪ this book is going to make a lot of people angry.
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>> going to be heads exploding all over washington. >> you know that? >> yes. >> good morning, it's 8:00 here on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set, the reverend al sharpton, new york "daily news's" s.e. cupp and alex wagner and down in washington also from the huffington post, sam stein. let's start with that clip. reverend sharpton, an exclusive interview with dick cheney, jamie gangel going to appear on dateline on monday, we're getting clips ahead of his new memoir. he's going to make some people angry as he said. he goes after colin powell, goes after condi rice, goes after george tenet and in the clip we have -- do we have the waterboarding clip? he comes out and says again i believe in what we did with waterboarding. i do it again. here's what he said. >> in your view, we should still be using enhanced interrogation? >> yes. >> no regrets?
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>> no regrets. >> should we still be waterboarding terror suspects? >> i would strongly support using it again if circumstances arose where we had a high-value detainee and that was the only way we could get him to talk. >> even though so many people have condemned it, people call it torture, you think it should still be a tool? >> yes. >> reverend sharpton, what do you think about dick cheney coming out with a memoir at this point in which he goes after a lot of people he worked closely with who are still around obviously? >> well, i think several things. one, i think it's interesting that he would say he's going to make a lot of people angry. he always did make a lot of people angry. >> well, he's making some other people angry. >> what i think is interesting is he uses his memoirs to really go after people that served in the administration and who were loyal to the administration and to policies that he really helped engineer, and the gratitude they get is to be attacked in his memoirs, which
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means they'll have to roll out and defend themselves. so, it gives you a -- it gives a of the view of the mentality of dick cheney. the politics of it, though, is that i think he will remind a lot of americans of what we want to get away from. i think this is good for president obama, and we on that side of the political aisle, because of we need somebody to remind america why we wanted to get away from the bush/cheney era. so, if i was one of the republican candidates, i wouldn't want at this time, right going into labor day as things gear up for the election, you got to deal with the -- the persona of dick cheney now being the story. i think politically i couldn't have timed it better if i was the one that was engineering it for the democrats. >> s.e., what about that, about colin powell, he writes, "the new york times" got an advance copy of the book and they have some excerpts here, he basically
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goes after colin powell for expressing doubts about the iraq war privately, he says not bring them up to him and to the president? >> i think it's clear that dick cheney above all else despite what your point is, and i get your point, was the loyalist to the president and really did not take kindly to people going around the president and talking bad about him publicly or to other people. i'm not sure that any of the republican candidates are all that worried about what dick cheney is doing right now. none of them had -- had very strong bush ties. i don't think this reflects at all on them. it's years later. but i think dick cheney is a little sick and tired of his name being dragged through the mud. and i think this is sort of his way of saying, look, i have no regrets, i make no apologies. i don't have a legacy to protect. i'm not running for office again. that was it. i did what i did and i'm proud of that record. >> well, there are some parts of the book some are saying where he second-guesses president bush just a little bit. here's what he told jamie
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gangel -- >> do you think president bush will feel betrayed that you've revealed these private conversations? >> i don't know why he should. >> you don't think so? >> no. >> you have always said that you believe the president deserves to be able to trust the people around him. >> right. >> by revealing these differences, you don't think you're betraying that trust? >> no. >> alex, what do you think? >> i think a better title for the book would be "in my defense." this is clearly, i mean, i think to s.e.'s point, look, he feels like he's been done an injustice and this is for the annals of history just to clear the record. to the parts about george w. bush, i think one of the more telling episodes that we've seen excerpted is, you know, that cheney says he was really in control of the country after 9/11, he was commanding the country from a bunker, which many people if they are giving president bush credit, they give him credit in those moments right after -- right after the towers were attacked and the pentagon was attacked in terms
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of his leadership for the country and i think it's a very calculated move on jamie's part to say, actually, it was me. beyond that i would assume bush is sad that he's not part of the italian villagery. >> we'll get into that in just a second. because that was a little bizarre. sam stein, he does make the point that during september 11th president bush on that day anyway was a peripheral player, that dick cheney was running the show -- >> yeah. >> -- from a bunker underneath the white house. >> yeah, it's probably the most i illuminating imagery, besides the italian villagery. i read some of the "new york times" excerpts and some of it is stuff we're rehashing where he's not moving the ball forward in a way. i get there were differences in the bush administration during the prosecution of the iraq war but that was out there already and it's very well known that dick cheney fought behind the
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scenes with d s colin powell an disagreed with in the second term what george bush his boss did, so i'm curious to get my hands on a couple for this except for the italian villa. >> you are fixated on the italian villa. >> i want to be with dick cheney in the italian villa. it sounds great. >> let's read the excerpt "the times" writes that cheney talks about after he underwent heart surgery in 2010 he was unconscious for an extended period of time, a couple of weeks, he wrote that he had a prolonged visit dream that he was living in an italian villa pacing the stone paths to get coffee and newspapers. sounds like heaven to me, actually. >> it sounds like the opening montage for a "saturday night live" and it's unfortunate that they are in the off-season. >> they'll get their hands on it, trust me. we'll get back to cheney in a while. i want to talk about steve jobs as well. huge news, of course, he put out a letter announcing his
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resignation. reverend sharpton, it's hard to overstate the impact this guy has had on computing obviously, but obviously on music. he changed the music business. with film with pixar, on mark marketing, on retail experience. this guy is a giant in american history. >> no. i think that, you know, we use the term "giant" too loosely. there's clearly giants and then there's giants. and i think he falls in the real giant category. because he impacted american culture and world culture, period. i mean, what he did with technology and as you say music, it transformed how we deal with information. it transformed culture. at so many different levels, what jobs did just changed the face of the earth in terms of how people relate to each other. so, i think that he will go down in history as a real, real giant.
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and deservedly so. >> he said in his statement "i've always said that if there came a day that i could no longer meet my duties and expectations as ceo, i would be the first to let you know," he wrote his staff. "unfortunately that day has come." >> s.e., touched every point of our lives. >> absolutely. i think, though, when we all heard he had pancreatic cancer, we saw the writing on the wall and knew that this day would eventually come. unfortunately that's a very difficult cancer to beat. so, luckily, i think apple's been in place working toward this moment -- >> right. >> -- i think apple will be just fine. and we can all sort of look back and remember steve jobs both alive and when he passes as a huge innovator. and you're absolutely right, an iconoclast, a culture changer. >> tim cook, the coo, the guy
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who will take over, has as s.e. says, been in place for a long time, they expect a relatively smooth transition, although the stock is down a bit this morning. >> if you talk to tech analysts about this stuff, apple stock has been surging for the last couple of weeks. it briefly replaced exxon as the most valued company in the country. the question is always been what happens post-jobs, there's a succession plan in place. but never forget that steve jobs was very much the top of this pyramid, and all major decisions flowed through him. so, you know, i'm not saying that there's going to be a wild disruption in terms of apple day to day, but i do think it is significant, and i think you'll see a lot of fluctuation in the market because of that. >> we'll check the markets in a minute. sam, i want to get you in on the 2012 poll, a gallup poll that says announcing his bid for the white house two weeks ago, not even, rick perry has surpassed mitt romney and michele bachmann in the 2012 race. he leads all candidates with 29% among republicans and
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republican-leaning independents, romney 12 points back at 17, followed by ron paul, michele bachmann. the poll was conducted before huntsman new aggressive strategy i guess you could call it. hasn't made much of a dent, he's at 1%, the number we really want to focus on, sam, is the 29% for rick perry. what does that tell you? >> it says that the field was, as everyone sort of suspected, unsettled before he entered. i know that mitt romney was the front-runner, but if you talk to anyone who participated, there was an operative or a voter in the republican primary, they were never really satisfied with the status. michele bachmann did not get a bump out of the win at the ames straw poll, and generally speaking there was a wide opening up top of that field for someone to grab ahold of, and rick perry did it, and he doesn't look like he'll be a rehash of fred thompson who famously entered the 2008 primary and sputtered and disappeared very quickly. he vaulted right to the top and i think it said a lot about the state of play to begin. >> reverend sharpton, if you are mitt romney looking at that
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number, how worried are you? >> i think you got to be concerned. you got to hope that it's a new entry bump, but it looks like it's a little more than that. and you can't underestimate rick perry. i mean, even though he and i may disagree on even the weather, the fact is he has never lost an election in texas. he does know how to run a campaign. >> yeah. >> he's a very shrewd person, he has a certain charisma that mitt romney doesn't have. and i think that if i was advising mitt romney, i would say if you're thinking it's a shower that's going to pass, look at hurricane irene that's coming. you're going to have to deal with it that way. i think the big loser, though, is sarah palin. >> sarah palin? >> i think the fact that he seems to have traction lessens her attraction. and i think that she's the one that i would say better get a copy of cheney's memoirs and
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start thinking about her own. >> always the poet, reverend sharpton. >> only early in the morning. >> let's listen to what romney said. he was actually asked about this poll. >> look, i followed the strategy i've had and that we've laid out from the very beginning. and the field is still fluid. there are going to be potentially other candidates. i heard today george pataki is thinking about getting in. i heard that potentially i saw karl rove thought sarah palin might be getting in, there's change amongst our group. but if you're running for president, you should be focused on the person who is president and his failures and how to make america better. >> clearly the moment the energy for the republican party is with rick perry. does he have staying power? >> a couple of interesting things. jeb bush came out recently and sort of asked for a new tone among republicans, we shouldn't be flamethrowers and clearly that is not what voters want. they want the flamethrowers. rick perry has been the most
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combative thus far when it comes to talking about obama and his administration. and apparently voters are responding to that. the problem is there are two rick perrys and if you talk to texas republicans, there are two separate camps. one camp says that he's this sort of outsider, that's nonpolitician, the secessionist, you know, rick perry. they really like that. they famously quip that he's the texas republican bush pretended to be. the other half, his detractors among texas republicans, find him to be overly political, cronyism, and patronage that they really are turned off by. he has to choose very quickly which rick perry he wants to be going forward, the outsider, the outside washington texas politician, or the very politically savvy establishment guy. he can't occupy both spaces. >> and alex, s.e. makes the point of jeb bush admonishing for the noncivil tone. and jon huntsman is the 1%.
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>> and his mom is the 1%. poor jon huntsman, what else can you say? other than he is trying to compete. he is saying that, you know, presidents are elected in new hampshire and south carolina, that's where his effort is, this is all just noise, he's not going to get involved in this sort of rabble-rousing, but you have someone like rick perry who is his own hurricane irene. and i think, you know, in that same mitt romney interview someone said, you know, mr. romney, are you going to be showing more personality now? no offense. and romney just had no rejoinder do th to that. >> it proves he has no personality. >> this is all i got. so, sam, let's suppose rick perry for the sake of this argument is the nominee. how does he do in the general? that's been the knock against him? a great primary candidate, maybe not so good in the general election. >> well, if we're going to go down this hypothetical -- >> we are. >> why not? it's perfectly responsible. i think he doesn't do as well as people would envision.
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he's got a lot of problems, a lot of skeletons in the closet and it goes back to what s.e. was talking about which is the cronie isy cronyism, which is the texas miracle, the rapid job growth in texas, he's got a lot of problems with his views on climate changes and a whole host of social issues that i think will resurface. it might play well in the republican primary but i don't think it does very well in the general election. and one more thing, it's unfair to tannish him with bush's legacy because he's not bush, but i don't know how ready the country is for another texas republican right now. up next, the man that brought down bernie madoff, the biggest ponzi schemer in the country, now he's starring in a movie about the scandal. and how will steve jobs' resignation from apple impact the market? we'll get a check of the market with cnbc's simon mobs. but we want to get a check on hurricane irene with bill karins. hey, bill.
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>> you need to pay close attention and start making the hurricane preps. it's the bottom line it's heading our way. let me show you the path of the forecast from the hurricane center. this was the 5:00 a.m. update and another one comes out at 11:00 east coast time, and they are taking to therm to north carolina as we go throughout saturday afternoon, the world series of it will be saturday evening around sunset into the overnight hours, possibly in the category 3, more likely a strong category 2, then the storm will weaken and it will also pick up speed, but it will not weak fast enough to not do damage, it goes to the beaches of maryland and delaware and all of long island and southern new england could get hit by the category 1 hurricane, it will be very significant, a lot of water and a lot of rain and waves will do damage in the days ahead. the time to prepare is now and midday saturday, after that it will be too late. major rainstorm, and the biggest
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story will be the extreme tree damage and a lot of power outages that will last well into next week. there's a shot of what's coming our way. right now the worst is heading to nassau in the bahamas. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks.
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♪ the first bank said, well, harry, you know, we have money with madoff and he never loses us money. you could lose money. >> every time i said that, i was pissed off that they would tell people that. nothing at all like madoff, you fools. madoff is a crook, i'm legit,
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i'm real. they would all tell me the same story -- >> madoff is closed, you know, he's not accepting any more money, but we have a special deal with him and he accepts our money and only our money. >> when you hear it the first time, you sort of believe it, but when you hear it time and time again, you know it's a ponzi scheme, because what do we know about ponzi schemes, you need new money coming in to replace the money going out. >> that was a scene from the new documentary "chasing madoff" about harry -- >> markopolos. >> -- markopolos and his team of investigators, the ten-year struggle to expose the truth behind bernie madoff's giant ponzi scheme, the film that features harry based on the book "no one would listen," a true financial thriller. he joins us now. you go back and look at what you did here, may of 2000 you went to the s.e.c. october of 2001 you went back. three times in the fall and winter of 2005. june of 2007. april, 2008. you sent a document to the s.e.c. entitled "the world's largest hedge fund is a fraud."
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what else could a guy do for the s.e.c.? you walked right up to the doorstep and handed it to them. it leaves you with only one of two possibilities. they're either corrupt or incompetent, which is it? >> it was clearly systemic incompetence over the period of several years. everybody assumed corruption. there was a massive investigation of the s.e.c.'s own staff but it proved that everybody just didn't know how to do their job. >> what was your particular interest in this? how does it begin? because a lot of people just saw the end. how did you start looking at bernie madoff? >> i was a derivative portfolio manager and managing billions of dollars in options strategies and bernie madoff was pretending to compete against me, and i couldn't compete against him, because his returns were perfect and mine were not, because i was really managing money, and he was pretending to. >> i love the line, it took me five minutes to know it was a fraud, it took four more hours to prove it was a fraud. you really dug into this after you left your job at the financial firm, you went into a
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company where you were investigating. this became your life's work? >> i saw so much corruption particularly in 2003 during the madoff investigation, i realized that my talents were better used against the industry, bringing cases against it, so that's what i do. i chase felons on wall vote, mainly large financial institutions. >> so how does this -- did bernie madoff ever respond to you when he heard you were the guy, okay, there's this guy who is looking deeply, did he ever express -- did he go after you? did he contact you in any way? did he show that, uh-oh, that's somebody that's on to me? >> never, unfortunately during the investigation and afterwards he says he hates me. that's okay. that's uthe ultimate to have bernie madoff hate you. >> you were just down there and spoke to madoff. >> we got an interview with madoff earlier this year, i traveled down with david galley my colleague to see him in
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prison for a couple of hours, you should take it as a compliment that he spent quite a lot of time talking about you. very scathing, said he hated you several times, et cetera, the interesting thing i asked the same question that you asked harry, is it down to cutation or incompetence at the s.e.c., the fact that they didn't cotton on to your warnings. and what he said very clearly, very graphically, is that it was incompetence, and he described at great length how the s.e.c. would come in on the back of your warnings, have a look at his books, and he just laughingly sort of hoodwinked them over and over again. >> so, what is the problem, then, harry? do we not have the right people in these jobs? because we as the american people assume there's someone in washington looking after us, and this laid bare that, in fact, there's not. >> we underpay and underresource our regulators. there's no bonus system for doing a good job. you can be punished for doing a good job because of political interference. most of the regulators are captive to the industry they are supposed to be regulating. >> is it true a lot of them want
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to go on to work for many of the people they regulate? they want a job with goldman sachs? >> that's because the pay is much higher, you can make several times more money in private sector than in the federal government. >> one of the bizarre things in the interview with madoff that we had, he came out with a list of recommendations about how he would improve the regulation system. they were quite sensible. >> the turncoat. >> i wonder, harry, in your investigation, did you interview the clients and say, hey, wait a second, you might want to know something about your investments? >> if you tried to warn them, they would never believe you, they always believed in bernie. because bernie was so seemingly wealthy that he didn't need to steal. that's the problem with all white collar predators, they don't seem to need the money but they take it anyway. >> you point out that bernie madoff's returns were like a major league baseball hitting 0.900 for the season. >> no home runs or triples, just doubles for the season.
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>> at the end of the day it was a relatively -- until he was caught, it was a relatively smart approach for bernie madoff, he didn't go too big with it, is it fair to say? >> he would lie low and give you a lower number, usually in the industry you lie higher. you pretend to have more assets under management than you really do, so he was quite clever. >> in your investigation did you find, because this has been a big question in this case, that his son, his wife, had knowledge of what was happening or the extent of what was happening? >> certainly the family was involved. brother peter was chief compliance officer. peter's daughter, shayna, bernie's niece, she was number two in compliance for a firm that was never in compliance for one day, ever. >> what's your sense of how much -- how involved the family was? >> we spent a lot of time asking him whether his children and his wife were involved. i think essentially what was going on with a lot of -- it's a great comment it's hard to get a
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man to under if your jobs depend on not understanding and it wasn't in their interest to ask a lot of questions. i suspect his wife didn't know the details, and frankly it still breaks his heart and he ciaed wi e cried with us during the interview because i think he thought by turning himself in he would protect her and possibly his sons, and, of course, it didn't work. >> i have an issue with the compliance people, peter and shayna, submitting a series of false reports to the government on a continuing basis. filing with regulators as well as self-regulatory organizations. so, you'd almost half ve to say they knew they were falsifying the documents, they weren't taking the compliance steps that they said they were taking in the firm. as far as andrew and his brother mark, they were marketing, i had many victims say they were marketed to by the sons, the sons would have had to know that
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they had no equities trading desk and there was nobody with the talents anywhere in the firm. >> the big question going forward is really whether the next time we have a bernie madoff and we have someone like harry who is actually trying to blow the whistle, is there a system in place now in america to make sure their concerns are actually heard? >> and what is your relationship with the s.e.c. at this point? >> i have a very good point with the s.e.c. under the dodd/frank whistle-blower program, they can pay 10% to 30% of awards, they want to stop the cases before they are too big. they don't want another $65 billion ponzi scheme on their hands. they handle them very gently, they thank you with coming in for a big complaint. they want the well-developed cases coming in where before they ignored you. >> do you think if you'd been operating or blowing a whistle today, that madoff would have been stopped earlier? >> the s.e.c. has learned how to do ponzi investigations from the madoff case. they learned a great deal from the failures in the madoff case. >> well, that's encouraging. >> so, we're better off today at
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the s.e.c. than we were three years ago? >> yes. this case took them to an all-time low, and it was either get going or get going out of business. they were going to be closed as a regulator. they saw what happened to the financial supervisory authority in london where they were disbanded, and they didn't want that to happen to them, so they learned to re-form themselves. >> thank you very much, harry. we appreciate you being here. the film is "chasing madoff." it's in theaters tomorrow, august 25th. thank you, harry, appreciate it. you can see more of harry in the mojo green room, go to msnbc.com right after the show to see a behind-the-scenes interview with harry and with some of our other guests. am coming up, how will the r resignation of steve jobs affect the markets? cnbc's simon hobbs next. ♪
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♪ i'm telling you, couldn't have picked a better time to be in new york city, do you know what i'm saying? yesterday, earthquake. this weekend, hurricane. where do you folks go next,
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tripoli? i tell you, i hate it when the natural disasters hit. we got the hurricane coming and the young women over there, the flash dancers, already strapping themselves to the pole. >> flashers! >> earthquake, it's unusual to get them here in new york. 5.8 on the richter scale. hell, i've had bigger heart attacks than that. thank you very much. the earthquake was so strong that the tea party shifted to the center. that's a -- >> yeah. >> felt it down in washington close to the epicenter, it was so strong there nancy pelosi, do you know nancy pelosi, her hair actually cracked. there was a crack in her hair. they're going to have to caulk it. they're going to caulk her hair. >> welcome back to "morning joe." let's get a check on "business before the bell" with cnbc's simon hobbs. he's live at the new york stock
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exchange. good to see you this morning. everybody talking about steve jobs, the resignation. what does it mean for the markets? >> can i mention we have the weekly jobless out, willie, just to clear it out of the way. it's moving in the wrong direction. initial claims climbing by 5,000 to 417,000 and an upward revision on the week before but a lot of this apparently has to do with the verizon labor strike, so we can kind of push it to one side perhaps, it's still 400,000, that's where we don't want it to be, but we already know that unmoment is a problem. yeah, steve jobs is really the talk of the town, and what you get is people wanting to pay tribute to the man that transformed apple into last week temporarily the largest quoted company in the world by value on the stock market. as you work out, you know, what was the secret sauce to explain the huge success that he had, there's nervousness clearly about what tim cook will do. i mean, we've had the fire drill on the jobs leaving several times before and each time tim cook he was the chief operating officer, stepped in and took the helm, but he's a notoriously
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private man and i think, you know, jobs was the big showman, people worry exactly what cook is going to be able to do. can he continue to followthrough, but, of course, the product line is basically set now for the next two or three years, so he's not going to make a huge impact on that. more people say it's about the cash pile, $76 billion, what will happen to that, and also, of course, the ability that jobs had, "a," to say no to things, like let's not go with the floppy, let's not do all that sort of stuff, let's concentrate on the one or two things that are important to the company and also jobs' ability to second-guess what the consumer wanted. when they lawn. the ipad he was asked by a reporter how many focus groups have you done on this. he said, none. it's not the consumers' job to know what they want. he built the ecosystem and that makes him a very, very unique man. >> alex, that's pretty brave in today's world when every product is tested -- >> absolutely. >> -- for years and years and
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focus groups until they whittle it down to nothing, he never looked at a focus group. >> not only to have the strategy but have it work consistently over and over and again and develop the products that are in effect game changers for the entire communications industry. it does bring a -- you do question can tim cook channel that mojo. i mean, it really -- he -- you know, steve jobs is in a class by himself. he is -- you know, we talked about giants earlier, i mean, he is going to go down in history as a henry ford, as an almost einstein-like figure in the american sort of commercial system and i think, you know, for -- with reason. today is a sad day. and i think, you know, the market will have its reaction, but i think american consumers and the american public have reason to be sad. >> do you think, simon, this is a "one day" one-day reaction? is it something we might see play out over the next couple of weeks as weem lopeople lose con with the departure of steve jobs? >> did you think steve jobs was
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going to stay on? clearly the man he's been in semiretirement since january. he's still going to be the chairman, of course, others would say, actually, do you know what steve jobs left the world, what he created more than any one product is, "a," the ecosystem that surrounds apple, but also apple, the company itself, the business, the leadership team. i guess the real question for cook is can he retain those people and still motivate them? because the idea in all honestly that one man could have generated all those products is clearly silly. he was the arbitrator and the final guy that said no, rejected the iphone three times, but it was the teams and the supply chains that made it work. so, there is still a big backbone there, we just hope they can maintain it and as they say keep the staff. >> created a great american company. simon, thanks so much. simon pointing out the jobless claims this week at 417,000. simon, thank you. for"forbes" magazine has pu
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o out the list of the 100 most powerful women. angela merkel the number one most powerful woman in the world. number two, hillary clinton, and michelle obama is number eight, and 11, lady gaga, and michele bachmann coming in at number 22. political corruption, and a mag sna stagnant workforce and that's just a tip of the iceberg of the problems in pakistan, we'll talk with the author, pamela constable about her new book "playing with fire." more "morning joe" when we come back. hi, i'm doing my back-to-school shopping
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peter alexander recently sat down with the deputy foreign editor at "the washington post" pam constable to discuss her new book, "playing with fire, pakistan, at war with itself." >> what is the war within pakistan that most people when we look at the sort of geopolitical landscape don't think about? >> well, i would say that the main war within pakistan is between what we call a moderate, humanistic version of islam and a more radical and violent and punitive view of islam. and pakistan has a long tradition of a more moderate, humane, kind of islam, but in recent years, for various reasons, particularly since 9/11, a more -- a more conservative, more harsher version of islam has been -- has been rising. and there's a huge clash between these two ideas. >> it's been more assertive, the radicalized version, but the numbers still bear out for the most part that the majority of pakistanis are, in fact, moderate muslims, right?
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>> that is true. the taliban, the draconian, you know, boogiemen are still very much in the minority, very much considered to be on the fringe. >> and loathed by the majority. >> i wouldn't say that exactly. if you asked the average pakistani what sort of government he wants or she wants, they will say sharia law. now, sharia law means maybe like iran, maybe like saudi arabia. people may not really und lly ud what they're asking for, but they are asking for it. >> i spent recently time there po post-osama bin laden's death, and the pakistanis view our role in afghanistan and they are concerned more than anything what will happen in afghanistan, that india will come in and fill a void there. what is the primary fear about the potential withdrawal of american troops from that region? >> you hit on two very important points. if i had to stress one, actually, it would be india, you know, pakistan for a variety of
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reasons is terrified of india. they've always thought and feared that india was going to sort of try to take them over one day. i personally think they're wrong, but it's very hard to persuade them of that. >> it was clear when i was there, that was the conversation piece with everybody we met. >> pam, you spent an enormous amount of time in that area of the world. it is our principal ally, pakistan, with our war within afghanistan, and yet within pakistan, there are -- there were in cambodia, years ago, sanctuaries, where they go back and forth across the border, and the pivot point in the relationship with this country, what happens as a result of that? >> it's -- it's a very dicey situation. i mean, you have an official policy, as you say, there a strategic allies, but you have the covert, semicovert, hidden zones in which you have militants both from afghanistan and from pakistan who are able to cross back and forth more or less at will and do a lot of harm in afghanistan.
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now, the main result on pakistan, at least as far as the public has been concerned, has been these drone attacks, these unmanned predator planes that we, being the cia, send across to attack the militants. >> has that done more to fuel anti-americanism in pakistan than -- >> more than almost anything else. i mean, since 9/11 i would say you probably would agree this has just become the number one national issue for pakistan. >> is it safe to say with a number of drone attacks speaking over the past several years that anti-americanism runs deeper in pakistan now than it has? >> absolutely. and it's continuing to increase. >> based upon your experience and observations in both countries, afghanistan and pakistan, who would have had the more muscular covert policy, under president bush or president obama? >> well, certainly under president bush. i think, again, mr. obama has been picking up the pieces of a lot of -- a lot of very complicated policies. but on the other hand, things
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have gotten worse since then. so -- so i mean, i think ideologically the bush administration, you know, started out with this very deliberate approach. i think the obama administration has been trying to find that balance between, you know, wanting to do things the right way, wanting to get rid of the bad guys, but really not knowing how we deal with this -- with this country that's supposed to be our good friend. >> well, you say they've been trying to find the balance. it is the obama administration that has, i don't know if it's tripled ethe number of drone atta attacks. it's the central focus of the anti-terror campaigns whether you are talking about pakistan or yemen, now in somalia, coming to a neighborhood near you soon. >> well, in the case of pakistan, it's really a substitute. and i think a reluctant substitute, for what they see is the difficulty of completely trusting the pakistani military
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establishment which is also the reason they didn't tell them about going after osama, they simply don't trust them anymore. >> as you note, it is as i witnessed there the most revered institution in that society, obviously running the country, far more than the political leaders do there i think, a lot of people would make the argument, so how haunting is what happened there the sense of betrayal by the americans? and while we think over here when you come back to the states, look at all the money we're giving them and they're not giving us any help, they have no sense it's that way, they think we're betraying them left and right? >> the army was humiliated, absolutely humiliated by the episode and the repercussions are enormous in the institution. i don't think institutionally the pakistani army has been this internally troubled since 1971 when they lost bangladesh. >> looking at the notes, half the population is under 15 years old. >> and it's going to become more. the demographic time bomb in pakistan is extraordinary. i mean, the rate at which the
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population is growing. the fact that they can't educate and find jobs for so many of their people. the fact that they're running out of water. i mean, there's a whole lot. >> it's brewing. >> it's brewing, yeah. >> the book is "playing with fire, pakistan at war with itself." pamela constable, fascinating. thanks very much for coming in. >> thanks a lot. >> we'll be right back. f!
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live pictures right now of nassau, bahamas. that's hurricane irene whipped across that region, barreling down now on the eastern seaboard as well. here with the latest, bill karins. what is it looking like? >> it looks like we're going to get a direct hit. there's really no avoiding it now. the hopes that the storm would go peacefully out to sea and hook away is looking slim now. the storm is a large storm. you know how big the state of florida is and you can sitting right next to florida and all the bright red clouds are where the heavy rain is and the thunderstorms. florida for the most part will be spared, you're getting rain and wind in miami but nothing that will do any damage. these are the weather computers showing us where the storm will track. the yellow cone is the cone of uncertainty, you have a chance of the storm heading over you. the south carolina, georgia, florida, you appear to be safe. eastern north carolina is right in the midst of it along with our friends from the eastern
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virginia, d.c., baltimore, all the way up there through new england. here's a closer view with those computer models. once the storm comes off of north carolina, we know for a fact it looks like eastern north carolina will take a direct hit for probably a category 3 or a strong category 2 storm. there will be a lot of damage down there. the question is how much damage will we get further north? notice the shift. notice we had some off the coast, they're all inland at this point and a lot of them are tracking along the coast. this could be a storm that scrapes the coastline from maryland to delaware all along the jersey shore and up through long island, and then it will weaken as it heads up to new england. that track right there with the orange, red, green, yellow, and blue lines are will cause a ton of damage and a lot of power outages in a strong storm surge on long island as we go into sunday. this is the official forecast track of the hurricane center, it's kind of on the slight right edge of where we saw the computer lines. the next update will come out at 11:00, but it doesn't look like a major hurricane hitting southern new england or the mid-atlantic, it looks like a
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category 2, weakening to a category 1, but with all the trees around here, we haven't had a storm in a long time, it will do a lot of damage. >> bill, you said it. a lot of people hoping the storm would move out to sea over the next couple of days. all right, bill, thanks. up next, what did we learn, if anything, today. [ male announcer ] butter. love the taste, but want to cut back on fat?
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